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 Post subject: (2)Memorial
 Post Posted: Sun 29. May 2011, 22:30 
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Joined: Sat 28. May 2011, 19:05
Posts: 114
Image

Bases: 12 (10 blue, 2 Gold. All regular.)

Main size: 29,5 CCs

Rush distance is 155,9 between mains. 121,6 between nats.

Size: 112x132 playable (including air)

Positions: 1 vs 7 o'clock.

Short Desc:

I wanted to make a 12 bases XNC-like map but with more easily defended bases, while still keeping race balance. Also, I took pain to create some variation in how the expos are layouted individually so that the gameplay will be different depending on which you take.

Published on EU and perhaps NA (by ETP) as Memorial

Official TL thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmes ... _id=195340
(including replays and map analyser images, etc)

Know issues
- ppl seems to think the map is too narrow. Players want more space.
- some don't like the art style beacuse of the mix of colors and textures form different tilesets. The shakuras tiles got most of the hate, I believe.
- >insert your concerns here<


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  Posted: Sun 29. May 2011, 22:30 
 


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 Post subject: Re: (2)Memorial
 Post Posted: Mon 30. May 2011, 08:43 
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Joined: Thu 26. May 2011, 18:19
Posts: 156
somehow I didmn't comment you map at TL.

I think the map boundaries are big enough to create enough space within and especially some ramps could be wider in my opinion. also I am unsure about the counter-clockwise fourth orientation: it makes things quite naroow and the rotation suggest to let the counter-clockwise be used by the 'opposing player' or at least open to attacks from this direction. wouldn't it be much easier if this base was rotatet to the side so that it rests close to the outer edge?

I have to admit I am not to fond of the texturing, too.


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 Post subject: Re: (2)Memorial
 Post Posted: Mon 30. May 2011, 15:14 
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Joined: Sat 28. May 2011, 19:05
Posts: 114
Thanks for commenting!

Quote:
especially some ramps could be wider in my opinion


Please be more specific. Which ramps and why?

Quote:
counter-clockwise fourth orientation: it makes things quite naroow and the rotation suggest to let the counter-clockwise be used by the 'opposing player' or at least open to attacks from this direction. wouldn't it be much easier if this base was rotatet to the side so that it rests close to the outer edge?


The base effectively creates two paths to the nat and the third. Yes, you'll probably attack from that direction, what is the problem with that? The main concept here was to make every base unique. Another rotational base would be closer to the third, siegable from the high ground fifth and not so different from the other bases (note that the base in its current position is not siegable from the fifth, nor CC or minerals). Since its so close ot the other bases I wanted to make it harder to defend. There is a gap in the wall, allowing workers in, lings by, or as a small harrasment backdoor.

I'd like to hear more opinions on this matter.

Quote:
I have to admit I am not to fond of the texturing, too.


Please be more specific. The overall colors, the unusual mix of textures, some specific textures? What would you change and why?

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: (2)Memorial
 Post Posted: Mon 30. May 2011, 16:18 
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Joined: Thu 26. May 2011, 18:19
Posts: 156
Since you stated players said the map is too narrow I kind of started to look for spots to produce some space. that means I am rather sensitive for looking for such areas. especially because playing T myself I always ask myself if each and every ramp should not be a litle bit wider.

Meltage wrote:
Please be more specific. Which ramps and why?


In my opinion the ramps at the 3 and 9 oclock expansion are too narrow. It looks like a double wide ramp which is quite small for something on highground. Depending on race it could be really hard to defend or attack. This would be easy to change and test and fix if needed.
also you could add some space on the highround (e.g. one to three more small grid spaces towards the closer base) to allow adding some units up there and give them some space to move in or out.







Meltage wrote:
The base effectively creates two paths to the nat and the third. Yes, you'll probably attack from that direction, what is the problem with that?


the problem I see - and players may have 'felt' - that the idea to have an additional attacking patzh i good, but the execution is not (imho), because the path into the third (on the long way through the fourth) can be controlled and countered from pretty much the same position as an attack through the main path. It might work very well to sneek a few units in, but you would not use it for any bigger armies. T would be stretched out and Z would not want to hrough the small entries/exit between wall structe at fourth and map's border at all, because Z would have to be afraid to me smashed there. Most playes should scout the area at fourth. I think the path is great for quick attacks against nat or third, but I am not sure if it is worth it, because both pathes become quite narrow.

Meltage wrote:
The main concept here was to make every base unique.

something very good I think. But: I think it could be designed in a more simple way. Look at the lava behind the high yield: the wall structure should be the counterpart in black!
now it is a bit cluttered. use strong shapes.


Meltage wrote:
Another rotational base would be closer to the third, siegable from the high ground fifth and not so different from the other bases (note that the base in its current position is not siegable from the fifth, nor CC or minerals). Since its so close ot the other bases I wanted to make it harder to defend. There is a gap in the wall, allowing workers in, lings by, or as a small harrasment backdoor.


maybe try to make structure a bit too short to cover all minerals and turn 90° clockwise.
though I like the idea with the small hole.
gain: more space for extra path guaranteed.

Meltage wrote:
I'd like to hear more opinions on this matter.

me too. There is so much to learn when trying to explain one's concept respectivly one's understanding of a design descision

Meltage wrote:
Please be more specific. The overall colors, the unusual mix of textures, some specific textures? What would you change and why?

I do not like the way the main is colored. On the one hand it is a man made structure half way destroyed, but the textures there are a bit washed out as if they cannot decide if they want to be natural or man-made. On the other hand the black high-tech hex floortiles are in rather strong contrast to a general 'mish-mach' of blending textures, because of there strong outlines (hex). You might weant to try a man made texture that blends better like some greyish tiles of the korhal or tryador tileset or something similar. the natural cliffs texturing could need more contrast, e.g. some more rocky textures to complimant the flat sand textures and small details structural textures like small red rocks. this could help to define more shape and contrast, especially around the borders of cliffs.

it is not that i do not like the textures. the direction is great, but it needs more definition.


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 Post subject: Re: (2) Memorial
 Post Posted: Wed 1. Jun 2011, 23:11 
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Joined: Wed 25. May 2011, 00:24
Posts: 186
i think the map is totally fine^^
i like the colors also


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 Post subject: Re: (2) Memorial
 Post Posted: Mon 6. Jun 2011, 10:06 
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Joined: Sat 28. May 2011, 19:05
Posts: 114
@Samro - great lengthy feedback on this. I'll take into consideration when doing an update. However, I'm not sure how you eman I shoudl layout the fourth. Would you mind draw a sketch or paint on the overview image, or something like that?

About the 'issue' that the map being too narrow, I believe the feedback I got from playuers were not about specific passages, but rahter the map in whole. I believe players felt a bit unused to having only two paths through the centre and no real other option. Widening the ramps of the fifths would adress this I supose.

Also, on the texturing - great suggestions, you make me see it your way and how I could take it a notch higher in quality!

Thanks

@mereel - Thanks! I have to ask, though - do you believe the changes Samro suggests would make the map better or no? 'Totally fine' is still not perfect ;)


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 Post subject: Re: (2) Memorial
 Post Posted: Sun 4. Dec 2011, 18:58 
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Joined: Sat 28. May 2011, 19:05
Posts: 114
Currently WIP:
Image

Golds -> standard.

Also trying to make that base less open so that it will be easier to defend.
Movig the tower a bit closer to it and trying to make the tower less likely used in attacks. Compare to the latest official version:

Image


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